Virtual Lawmaking?

[Plain Old Jane]

A man was recently killed in korea for stealing a sword in an MMORPG. No, it wasnt publically sanctioned and carried out. He was killed by the man he stole it from. But the question is whether or not prohibitory laws should have punished the man first.

Because of this, many many questions about this sort of thing have been sprouting up all over the internet. Questions like, is stealing a virtual sword any different than stealing a real one? Lets take a look at the issues:

1. First of all, the man owned the sword, it was in his possesion and by all accounts, he earned it by playing through some odd quest of some sort for hours. For all intents and purposes, does this entitle him to it?

2. Stealing a sword on a game is different from stealing a song or from stealing a movie online. When I bittorrent myself out a copy of my favorite lesbian comedy "But I'm a Cheerleader" or a good drama like "If These Walls Could Talk 2," I'm not depriving that file from anyone else's enjoyment. Maybe I'm stealing some change from someone like George Lucas, but fuck him, I paid for sitting through episode 1 and 2, fuck him if he cant make a movie worth a shit anymore.
Anyway, stealing this sword, deprived this other man of his enjoyment of the game and made his hours of 'work' worth nil. Is this any different from stealing a real sword from a stalwart warrior? Now this brave warrior must go out and aquire a new sword, at his own expense, meanwhile the dickless wonder walks away with a great deal of time and energy saved. Is this any different from real theft? If you steal money from someone by paypal phishing, just because that money doesnt exist as anything more than 1s and 0s in a computer, does that mean it lacks value?

In america, only 10 percent of all currency is hard, the rest is just on HDDs and such. This, as speculated by many social scientists is the inevitable outcome of our economies, energy currency. But I digress, what does this all mean?

It means that if it has happened once, it is going to happen again, that means that leaders will need a way to deal with that, and that means legislation. Virtual Legislation.

I see this becoming a reality more and more as the internet becomes the dominant media in homes.

Perhaps in the end, the dead geeks death will have a purpose.

[thecreeper]

was the sword stolen through illicit means? or was the guy just a thief in the game? because if he took it according to game rules, hell no, shit happens. but if he used outside means to take the item, then...shit, i don't know.

it's so hard to take things like this seriously. i mean, anyone who kills a guy because of a game has got some real issues. in a country liked Korea, which is very wired and very active in MMORPGs, i could see this beinga benefit, because as most of you know, people like that fellow last month will sit there and play a game till they drop dead. so it's serious business, but you almost need to wonder if the problem isn't more deeply rooted in how people are spending their time, and how much weight and importance they are placing on a video game. no matter what, it's just a game, for christ's sakes.

[Mike]

The game world is fictious and it was made by the developer. If the developer created the game with the ability to steal objects from other people, it is permissible. The only possible violation is whether the game player violated his terms of service in playing the game ... at which the developer could offer a cease and desist for the player to stop playing.

If this were real life, and somebody stole somebody's sword, it is illegal, but that does not give anybody else a right to shoot that person.

If you steal money from someone by paypal phishing, just because that money doesnt exist as anything more than 1s and 0s in a computer, does that mean it lacks value?

PayPal makes use of real currency... You make actual money that can be traded. Money is not owned by the person who owns it, it is owned by the government who prints it and backs it up. SImilarly, your bank account is a bunch of 1s and 0s in a computer ... yet those 1s and 0s represent actual currency. If I steal from your PayPal account, I am obtaining federal property illegally, at your expense. If you are trading beans and somebody steals your beans, regardless of whether you've been using those beans in placement for money, unless they are valued on the market as being worth what you trade them for, they are just beans ... I may steal your beans, for the most part (you can sue me for stealing your beans, but it is not a crime similar to how stealing money is).

Similarly, the money in a game like WoW is fake money ... That money is not recognized in an international market. If you owed money on your mortgage, and you offered to pay it in WoW money, that would not be accepted. So, if I steal 40,000 WoW dollars from you, regardless of the 'virtual work' you've done, it carries no legal weight other than a violation of a terms of service. You could possibly sue me for damages and the developer could issue a cease and desist and ban me from the game, but you could not get a warrant for my arrested.

I do not think that there should be laws regarding virtual money in virtual universes. They're bound to be exploited, out of date, and a huge waste of time and real money.

--edit--
One more thing to ad, if you want WoW money and the items you've obtained to be protected by laws .. you have to pay taxes on those items. Do you want to claim that expensive WoW sword as an asset, or the 1,000,000 WoW dollars as income?

--edit--
When you download a song or a movie, you're not depriving somebody of enjoyment, you're violating rights to their material (legally speaking).

[raublekick]

This one time I was playing Ultima Online with a few of my friends on a free shard. I was one of the most powerful characters and I had lost my copy of the best sword in the game due to a crash in the server. My little cousin, however, had one; he was much weaker than me. I told him to come into my keep to check out some awesome stuff I got, but I secretly locked the door after he entered. At this point I told him i wanted to test my armor, so I asked him to attack me. In case you don't know the rules of UO, you will automatically fight back against an attacker, and self-defense is fair game. So, he attacked me, and my character faught back. He immediately asked me to stop, but being the uber-l33t knight that I was I said "LOL U N00B" and quickly struck him down. I stole his sword and then the server crashed again and never came back up.

Moral of the story: MMORPGs are a bunch of bullshit.

[Plain Old Jane]

Originally Posted by Mike

The game world is fictious and it was made by the developer. If the developer created the game with the ability to steal objects from other people, it is permissible. The only possible violation is whether the game player violated his terms of service in playing the game ... at which the developer could offer a cease and desist for the player to stop playing.(+ mikes stuff on money)

During the summer of my seventeenth year, I worked my ass off and bought new clothes and a PS2 and treated myself to a few new shows and gave a great deal to my SO at the time. I worked for these things, similarly for hours and eventually getting them, they were of worth to me.

I could care less that the US mint backs up my cash with gold, the fact that other people place value on these slips of paper does count and does go through my mind.

In the game, this sword was won through dedication and time, time wasted twere it stolen. It had value to the man that earned it, and no doubt others playing the game.

Both money and alleged swords exist on servers under the same format as ones and zeros. (granted thats a broad term but it is essentially true) The sword held value for the fucker who stole it and the man who earned it. Money in the physical sense only has value to those who use it and take it in return for goods and services. those ones and zeros on a computer that signify the 30 some dollars in my bank account (tuitions a fucking bitch) hold value because I believe they do, nonetheless they have value.

While playing the devils advocate, I can see why this sort of thing can happen, but the point is not whether the sword held any value federally, its if it held value to those involved, and that could have been prevented with proper legislation, not nessesarily from the federal govt.

If this were real life, and somebody stole somebody's sword, it is illegal, but that does not give anybody else a right to shoot that person.

This is true, nontheless, is it right to continue to have no rules concerning ownership and punishment for virtual criminal behavior. As this would cause stuff like this to happen again.

[raublekick]

We still don't know the means with which the sword was stolen. It all comes down to whether it was by sly in-game thievery (legal) or l33t h4xx0rzing (illegal).

Since UO had it's own law and jail system, and that game is ancient, I'd imagine that modern ones do as well.

Another aspect comes into play when deciding if legislation is needed: Thievery is only one such crime that can be committed in a game. What about PKing (player killing)? This is a big aspect of some MMORPGs, and there are generally rules to dictate where, when, and how a PK may take place. In the real world killing is pretty high on the punishment ladder. But, I would think that in a game the killing doesn't matter, because you respawn. It's the looting after a PK that really burns. So laws can't be directly transferred to online/game play.

Here's another thought to ponder: Did either man really "own" the sword at any point? They each probably owned a CD that contained the code that generated the sword, but the sword was created by the developers and the data which says "KoreanMan1 owns big sword of justice" is stored on the developers' servers. If this had happened on a single-player console or PC RPG through hacking of a memory card or harddrive would we still be worrying about the sword, or would we be worrying about the infiltration to get the sword?

[Mike]

Originally Posted by Plain Old Jane

I could care less that the US mint backs up my cash with gold, the fact that other people place value on these slips of paper does count and does go through my mind.

In the game, this sword was won through dedication and time, time wasted twere it stolen. It had value to the man that earned it, and no doubt others playing the game.

It has value only in that world. The game world. It has absolutely no value outside of that world. Hence, it is only punnishable in that world...

Both money and alleged swords exist on servers under the same format as ones and zeros. (granted thats a broad term but it is essentially true) The sword held value for the fucker who stole it and the man who earned it. Money in the physical sense only has value to those who use it and take it in return for goods and services. those ones and zeros on a computer that signify the 30 some dollars in my bank account (tuitions a fucking bitch) hold value because I believe they do, nonetheless they have value.

It doesn't matter how they're represented or how they're kept track of in a computer, real life money actually has value because we have international organizations (the IMF and the World Bank most noteably) that recognize different currencies for the purpose of exchanges. You cannot trade your WoW money.

While playing the devils advocate, I can see why this sort of thing can happen, but the point is not whether the sword held any value federally, its if it held value to those involved, and that could have been prevented with proper legislation, not nessesarily from the federal govt.

The value of American dollars, and most currencies, does not have anything to do with sentimental value or another factor ... $10 is $10 if I earned it through work or whether I found it on the ground. The value of this sword seems to be a culmination of time spent in the game, work in the game, its in game use, and some other factors. Money/Objects in videogames aren't the same thing. Now, you could probably sue the person who steals from you in a game, and if you have a particularly isolated court, you could win... most courts would throw the case away because it is a waste of time and money, but if you have a small-town court, you could probably win the suit.

This is true, nontheless, is it right to continue to have no rules concerning ownership and punishment for virtual criminal behavior. As this would cause stuff like this to happen again.

It is right to not have any real world laws regarding things that are in a make-believe world. It's sort of absurd ... and the possibility for exploitation is limitless. For instance, why limit this to online play? Let's say that you've spent countless hours in some videogame earning some sort of goal ... you've built your character up and obtained dozens of trinkets and weapons, and what not, that have a value to you. You're fighting the end-boss of the game and he kills you and you have to start back at level 0? Now while that is not generally how games are setup, you know what I mean. Couldn't we then sue the game developer for taking away something that we worked hard for? I got a ton of guns in GTA, and then Tenpenny shot the hell out of me in the last level and I lost all of my guns ... Should Rockstar be arrested, they wrote the code?

US laws cannot legislate in game environments... only a Terms of Service by the company. THe game company should force a service agreement that you cannot steal from other people in the game ... If they've allowed it to happen and its under their service agreement, nobody has done anything wrong. IF it is against their rules, then those players must be punished and not allowed to play.