Current economic woes

[raublekick]

Originally Posted by heX

its not their job retard

not their job, but they are still partly responsible. surely the oil companies have a hand in keeping alternate resources held back, and they have patents that prevent certain batteries from being used.

i don't think it's really fair to say that any of us are considering the wrong tools since... none of us really offered anything other than economic models and reduction of our wasteful lifestyles.

however, i don't really think things like ethanol and stuff like that are really a good thing. an alternate fuel that is harder to make and less efficient than gasoline isn't a very good alternative.

[heX]

Unless I missed out, I thought we were discussing the pros and cons of drilling our own oil. I thought johnny and liss were making the point that it is a pro that high prices keep us from consuming more, and a con of drilling our own is that we would use more. Which unless I misunderstood them, I would consider over paying for oil, the wrong tool for managing consumption.

Back to the original discussion:
I only see one real reason to not drill for oil in America, and that is to preserving wild life habitats. So my question would have to be to all Americans: Why are you ok if other people do it, and you will pay them top dollar to ensure they do, with no morale dilemma. But you consider drilling our own oil an outrageous proposition?

If there are other reasons not to drill our own oil, I guess I don't see them. Since using our own oil does not = using more. However it does = more American jobs and lower gas prices.

[raublekick]

On the wildlife habitats issue, none of us were around when other oil fields were drilled, so we can't really be for or against the drilling there. It's already been done. Plus most of the oil comes from the middle east in desert regions where there is a minimal habitat, so, in comparison to a lush environment like Alaska, it's not quite the same.

Are you serious about the "not = using more" thing? Already people are cutting back little by little because of gas prices. Cheap oil may not exactly mean using more directly, but it certainly would cause plenty of complacency. If we're paying $1 / gal right now, what reason is there to develop alternatives? I think the past 30 or so years of U.S. economic history agrees with me here.

[raublekick]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/ptech/0....ap/index.html

Neil Young knows what's up.

[Stormy]

Originally Posted by Liss

then hopefully out of the country...(although even then I'm screwed because of the worth of the dollar.)

Naw. I'm paid in dollars, buying in pounds. I'm doing alright. It just takes some willpower and an aversion to alcohol (or at least the British drinking cultures).

I'm hoping to stay out of the country. Don't know if I'll be able to, though. ::fingers crossed::

[GT2000]

http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker...USO,DUG,GM,SNE

[Liss]

Paid 4.54 for regular yesterday. Cheapest I could find. What was with the leap? Our gas went from 4.17 to 4.43 in two days, and has continued to go up a few cents each day. Is that everyone or just Los Angeles?

[Liss]

Oh, and Amelia, I'm glad to hear you're doing alright budget-wise, because that's the issue making me most nervous about moving. The good thing for me, though, is that Spain has supposedly kept their prices reasonable despite the high cost of the UK. If I get the job I'm after I'll be paid in euros and I'll be able to supplement my income too, of course I just won't ever return to the states with any money. ::

[heX]

the gas station across the street from me was selling gas for .99 from 7-10am. I found otu and got in line at 7:19, I know this becuase of time stamps on my phone. Due to line jumpers, fender benerds and fights, I got to the gas station exactly at 10:00 to see the prices flip from .99 to 4.12 ...son of a

[thecreeper]

wow...why would they sell gas that cheap? to make people hurt each other?

[heX]

Originally Posted by thecreeper

wow...why would they sell gas that cheap? to make people hurt each other?

probably so they could record the insanity and market as a ppv

[GT2000]

It's really steadied out lately.. been anywhere between 3.70 and 3.95 here for the past month +. Still fucking blows.

[thecreeper]

i'm really tired of treading water with my finances lately. i get by, but if it was 2 years ago and i was making the same amount of money right now, i'd be in a lot better shape.

[GT2000]

We still haven't cracked $4/gal around here as an overall average, but it's coming pretty fucking close, it makes me angry. And there's honestly nothing that I can personally do about the gas that we have to buy and use right now.

[Mike]

Originally Posted by Mr Biglesworth

They use draft horses, not tractors, so they're not affected by fuel prices either.

Somewhat. Not to get overly economic and political, but we.. well.. congress.. has created an enhanced artificial relationship between the cost of fuel and the cost of food, by subsidizing crops used to generate bio-fuel... A political goldmine, but at an economic, humanitarian, and environmental cost. The spike in food prices in mid 2007 was the result of this, and as fuel prices increase -- which they have since levelled off in the last 45 days -- the price of agricultural and food increased, which drives up the cost of feed. It was a bipartisan political manuever so that this congress could see a menial bump in approval ratings... it did not, and the unfortunate consequence is a semi-permanent link between energy and food where there wasn't as much of one before.

--

As for the economic woes... my 403(b) has tanked. I used to look forward to getting my free-money report in the mail from TIAA-CREF and now it's just the bearer of bad news. I conserve gas pretty well as it is and ride my bike almost anywhere that I *can.* I work a mile from home so I really only fill up once a month, if that. My old house was closer to more stuff... food, supermarket, etc, but my new place is closer to work... so it's a give and take.

Other than that, not much has changed in terms of my spending because of the economy. Dating costs too much money, but other than that... things are how they are.

[Mike]

Of course, as the perpetual contrived optimist... When people complain too much about gas prices, like when at work or whatever, I'm quick to put it into context. For the first time in human history, roughly 10,000 years of history properly understood, all manner of people in fourth most populated country in the world are able to travel hundreds of miles without puting much thought into it. If any of us wanted to, really, tomorrow, or two weeks from now, or a month from today, we could drive 500 miles... for no reason. In the anals of human history, prior to just a generation before ours, the average person in the most prosperous country in the world would rarely travel outside his own locality in his life time. Prior to that, only the wealthiest and most affluent people in the Earth could travel anywhere ... and even then, it was a several week or month journey where the odds of you losing your life were relatively high.

I still think it's a major shock to the collective human psyche if such a thing exists..

[Mike]

Originally Posted by johnny

2: gee, that's reassuring (that you think everything will be figured out). no sense of urgency or anything though, right? more concerned about pinching pennies on a tank of gas for the near future.. why should we care if the fuel we're burning is actually sustainable?

3: i can't tell if you're being facetious :|

There's a big graph of different lines and points and figures*. It would list many things, efficiency, cost, environmental effects, and so on. Oil, as much as we hate to admit it, sits right at the middle of this graph... It is the most efficient, the most cost effective, and one of the least environmentally damaging of those 'efficient / cost effective' solutions. The ethanol push, in 2006, was a huge lobbying scam and we're paying the price now. Hydrogen is a hoax. Fuel cells are less efficient and cost effective, but are reasonable alternatives... but at this point, they are no less environmentally friendly, over the life of a car, than a 1998 gas-guzzling SUV.

We could, perhaps, change our way of life... but we have to remember: our way of life has made for the most prosperous mass of people in the annals of human history. In the 120 years the "Big Oil" has appeared on the global scene, the world has exponentially gained in literacy, collective health, and quality of life. The impact that oil has on this is staggering... it is the lifeblood of the wealthiest economy in the history of the universe, and advances in technology, education, politics, health sciences, and so on, is the fruit of that economy.

* This graph does not actually exist, but it could if someone were willing to take the time to draw it.

[Mike]

Drilling in Alaska, though, is not the solution. We have to accept more changes and deregulate the industry. We have to drop silly myths about oil companies and government, get rid of the idea of "windfall taxes," drain our strategic oil reserve, tap ANWR, drop sulfur restrictions, end energy-based grain subsidies, begin drilling for shale oil (which has been economically viable since gas hit the $2.80+/- mark) drop food exporting tarifs/limits, and stop letting our emotions get the better of our economic sense.

[heX]

Originally Posted by Mike

Drilling in Alaska, though, is not the solution. We have to accept more changes and deregulate the industry. We have to drop silly myths about oil companies and government, get rid of the idea of "windfall taxes," drain our strategic oil reserve, tap ANWR, drop sulfur restrictions, end energy-based grain subsidies, begin drilling for shale oil (which has been economically viable since gas hit the $2.80+/- mark) drop food exporting tarifs/limits, and stop letting our emotions get the better of our economic sense.

Not disagreeing that other options come first, I still don't see a 'good' reason to not drill Alaska if we needed to. Hey, if it doesn't need to be done, don't do it, but I also wouldn't put it on the 'do not touch' list.

I'm not disagreeing with your statement, just wanted to add my disclaimer for future debate should it arise.

edit: and good to see you around.